Episode Transcript
[00:00:04] Speaker A: Yeah, we just wrapped up with Alex Nazarevich, who's the vp of growth at unbounce. And the way he thinks about growth is really, really interesting. Very much. Did you get the sense that he was just a really first principles thinker? Just, he was always kind of going back to the basics, regardless of what question we threw at him. But we covered everything from how to build a marketing strategy, from knowing your customer all the way to. Of course, we had to get into the app to ask every marketer about AI and how that works. And his approach to all those were just, it was almost like, simple but not obvious. Like the things he said when he, when he said it was like, oh, that's really like, just a simple approach, but it's not obvious and it's not easy. What did you take away from it?
[00:00:46] Speaker B: Number one is there's no b, two c, marketing.
[00:00:48] Speaker C: B two b marketing.
[00:00:49] Speaker B: It's just marketing. Right. People's attention, that stuck out to me. But then also that, that transition from b two c to b to b, he's like really deep in financial metrics. He understands the business. And I think that's a really important thing. No matter where you sit, whether it's in marketing or product or customer success or sales or any other part of a B two b SaaS or a B c SaaS organization, you really need to understand the fundamental language of business, which is finance.
[00:01:16] Speaker C: Right.
[00:01:16] Speaker B: To some degree, so you can make sure you're making the right impact from wherever you sit.
[00:01:20] Speaker A: Yeah. All right, well, let's get into it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I have seen, you, like, previously were in b two c, but now it unbounce more b two b. I also, my previous company was prosumer b, two c focus. And Cherokee is my first b, two b company.
[00:01:37] Speaker D: And my life, like, my whole life is different.
[00:01:41] Speaker A: My rhythms, my schedules, everything. And so I would love to hear your experience. What's that like, making that transition? What's easy, what's hard.
[00:01:49] Speaker D: Would love to hear about it. Yeah, 100%, I would say, like, yeah.
[00:01:54] Speaker C: For me, I followed a very similar path where I've worked primarily in b two b, especially like, digital marketing, e.
[00:01:59] Speaker D: Commerce, and so everything's the same, but everything's different.
[00:02:03] Speaker C: So you're 100% right.
[00:02:04] Speaker D: It's like you've got this different rhythm.
[00:02:06] Speaker C: Like everything's flying at you all at once. The metrics are different.
[00:02:09] Speaker D: The way that, like, you think about.
[00:02:11] Speaker C: The business and what you watch is completely different.
[00:02:13] Speaker D: But I think the turning point for me was like, I was like, hold on.
[00:02:17] Speaker C: There's not really b, two c, marketing and b, two b marketing.
[00:02:20] Speaker D: There's just marketing.
[00:02:21] Speaker C: Like, whether I'm selling you suits or whether I'm selling you software, like, I'm kind of just selling you an ideal version of yourself.
[00:02:27] Speaker D: And when I started thinking about it.
[00:02:28] Speaker C: Like that, it felt a little more manageable.
[00:02:30] Speaker D: And I was like, all right, I.
[00:02:31] Speaker C: Kind of feel like I'm hitting my stride.
[00:02:32] Speaker D: Like, previously I was our vp of growth at Indochino. So selling made to measure menswear and.
[00:02:39] Speaker C: Selling people like an ideal version of themselves. Like, yeah, you're putting on a suit.
[00:02:42] Speaker D: As a realtor, as an accountant, like, to go to a wedding, but you.
[00:02:45] Speaker C: Look like this well dressed, cosmopolitan kind.
[00:02:47] Speaker D: Of action hero, right? And selling software, you'd think wouldn't be.
[00:02:53] Speaker C: As maybe sexy as that, but it kind of is.
[00:02:55] Speaker D: We are selling to people, like, be.
[00:02:58] Speaker C: The best version of a digital marketer.
[00:03:00] Speaker D: That you can be, like, inside of you.
[00:03:02] Speaker C: There's this marketing expert. So we're giving you, we're not giving you landing pages. That's boring.
[00:03:06] Speaker D: We're giving you the tools to crush.
[00:03:07] Speaker C: Your goals, to look like a rock.
[00:03:08] Speaker D: Star, otherwise, kill it at your job.
[00:03:12] Speaker C: And when I start thinking of it.
[00:03:13] Speaker D: That way, that's sort of when it comes. Yeah, I love that.
[00:03:15] Speaker A: So I think a lot of marketers and salespeople in the software world, we have a hard time not selling buttons and features. We always want to point out, look at this cool thing my software can do.
[00:03:25] Speaker D: How do you do this?
[00:03:26] Speaker A: How do you keep yourself from doing that? And how do you remind and especially disseminating that down to your teams? How do you keep them selling the ideal version of the person's future? How do you keep doing that and not lose that as a foundation?
[00:03:42] Speaker C: Yeah, it's easy to get sucked into. I would say this is something that we're constantly mindful of.
[00:03:47] Speaker D: And it's, if you are marketing without.
[00:03:49] Speaker C: A solid framework of a brand, like who you are, who you're talking to.
[00:03:53] Speaker D: And who you stand for, I think.
[00:03:54] Speaker C: You'Re doomed to get.
[00:03:55] Speaker D: To get swallowed into it. And it's easy when you launch a.
[00:03:58] Speaker C: New feature to be really excited, and it's like, we've got this, but, like.
[00:04:01] Speaker D: That'S not, again, that's not really what you're selling. Customers get bombarded by info and, like.
[00:04:06] Speaker C: No, you open up LinkedIn and there's B.
[00:04:08] Speaker D: Two B ads everywhere.
[00:04:09] Speaker C: And as often as not, they're selling either. As you said, your new button your new feature.
[00:04:15] Speaker D: And I think to me, it's like you almost have to jump past that, because the ad itself, it isn't going to.
[00:04:21] Speaker C: You've got to be aware of where.
[00:04:21] Speaker D: The customer's at in their journey. The ad itself is not going to.
[00:04:24] Speaker C: Sell them on your solution. I'm not going to just whip out.
[00:04:26] Speaker D: My credit card and pay $100,000 a month, whatever, for a solution without understanding.
[00:04:33] Speaker C: How it fits and what problem it's solving for me.
[00:04:35] Speaker D: So I try and keep mindful of, like, what is our overall mission like at unbounce?
[00:04:40] Speaker C: We're here to help marketers grow smarter.
[00:04:42] Speaker D: And it's like, we want you to.
[00:04:43] Speaker C: Grow your business smarter, but we also.
[00:04:44] Speaker D: Want you to grow smarter, like, as a marketer yourself.
[00:04:47] Speaker C: So by focusing around the periphery of.
[00:04:50] Speaker D: Some of those features, it's like, we're.
[00:04:52] Speaker C: Not selling you an AI powered way to optimize your landing pages.
[00:04:56] Speaker D: We're selling you a way to optimize without thinking about it, to continue to ratchet up your conversion rate, to hit.
[00:05:03] Speaker C: Those goals that are getting harder every year to hit. And focusing on that, I feel like, has helped us get to the core.
[00:05:09] Speaker D: Of what people like and what people are trying to solve.
[00:05:13] Speaker B: Man, that's so good. What would you recommend if there's a company out there that doesn't have that kind of framework in place for how they talk about who they are and what they stand for? Do you have like a framework that you use to take people through that process, or take, take your team, your company through that process of defining that? Because that can be daunting, right? Because everybody has a different idea in their head, especially if you have, we have four founders and they're all brilliant.
[00:05:42] Speaker D: Prepared is one of them.
[00:05:42] Speaker B: They have different perspectives on the world. But how do you take and align that and decide who you are?
[00:05:50] Speaker D: I mean, to be fair, the hard.
[00:05:51] Speaker C: Work was done for me. Like, when I joined unbounce, this was like.
[00:05:55] Speaker D: And we have the double whammy of.
[00:05:57] Speaker C: We'Re marketers selling to marketers. So this is literally the dream.
[00:06:00] Speaker D: Okay, like, it doesn't get better than this, but I would say whichever framework.
[00:06:05] Speaker C: You end up using, the important thing.
[00:06:06] Speaker D: Is to know your customer. So for us, of course, we've got.
[00:06:09] Speaker C: Ourselves as a gut check. But we still need to be out.
[00:06:11] Speaker D: There surveying, reading the feedback, like reading the churn results, like reading the comments.
[00:06:16] Speaker C: Under our social media posts, like reading the Community posts.
[00:06:19] Speaker D: And if you're not doing that, you're.
[00:06:21] Speaker C: Not getting an acute understanding of who your customer is.
[00:06:24] Speaker D: And I feel like we've got these.
[00:06:25] Speaker C: Complex products that we're selling to help us do these powerful things.
[00:06:28] Speaker D: You can't get lost in the complexity. At the end of the day, you're.
[00:06:31] Speaker C: Solving a very simple problem. You're either making someone more money or making their job easier. Most of the time, that's what it comes down to. It's just understanding how do they see that in relation to themselves?
[00:06:40] Speaker D: And I guess that's, without getting into details, at a high level, how that framework applies. I know you all have a wide.
[00:06:47] Speaker A: Range of different types of customers from a growth perspective, I mean, aside from just the simple segmentation, but how are you thinking about approaching growth from a high level to make sure you're not excluding certain customer types or maybe over optimizing for one specific one?
[00:07:05] Speaker D: Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, I don't want to go.
[00:07:08] Speaker C: Back to, like, know your customer, because.
[00:07:10] Speaker D: That'S kind of too trite.
[00:07:11] Speaker C: I think that for me, it's, it's take it one segment at a time. Like, find out who you're really resonating with.
[00:07:18] Speaker D: I really, like, double down on that.
[00:07:19] Speaker C: And absolutely solve that use case for them.
[00:07:21] Speaker D: And I think you've got to have.
[00:07:23] Speaker C: A bit of a leap of faith.
[00:07:24] Speaker D: That that will help you solve the next one incrementally. So, um, in our case, actually, a good example is, I think we focused for, for so long, like, unbounce is.
[00:07:32] Speaker C: Known as providing landing page solutions.
[00:07:35] Speaker D: But something that's becoming really forefront of.
[00:07:38] Speaker C: Digital marketing now is, like, third party cookies are going extinct. Cpas are higher than ever. It's just harder to be a digital marketer out there. It's rough. And one of the things that's coming.
[00:07:47] Speaker D: Up again is this preponderance of a b testing. We all know we should do it.
[00:07:51] Speaker C: We all know we should do more.
[00:07:53] Speaker D: Of it, but we seldom do as.
[00:07:55] Speaker C: Much as we say we should.
[00:07:57] Speaker D: Why is that?
[00:07:58] Speaker C: So?
[00:07:58] Speaker D: One of the things that we did.
[00:07:59] Speaker C: Earlier this year, we held a webinar.
[00:08:00] Speaker D: Of just, like, a b testing basics.
[00:08:03] Speaker C: Like, do you have these fundamentals nailed?
[00:08:04] Speaker D: And it was our best attendant webinar ever. Like, by far, not even close. Like, by multiple factors of. So I would say starting with, okay, you've got your, like, in our case, a digital marketers as our, as a.
[00:08:18] Speaker C: Broad group that we're targeting, but then understanding use case by use case, like.
[00:08:21] Speaker D: What are you doing?
[00:08:22] Speaker C: And what should you be doing more of? And just kind of like, ratcheting it up from there.
[00:08:26] Speaker A: That's a great idea, Jay. We should have webinars focused that focus. We have a b testing in our product as well. And going back to, it's an easy feature to, like, sell and say, like, oh, yeah, here's a b testing.
[00:08:39] Speaker D: But what is.
[00:08:40] Speaker A: The customers are always like, oh, that's cool. And then they're like, when they get in the product, they tend to say, okay, wow, what do I do now? What do I a b test and how do I set it up?
[00:08:49] Speaker B: Yeah, how do I set this up?
[00:08:50] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, literally, like, it's easy.
[00:08:53] Speaker C: Like, you want all these features, especially as a marketer.
[00:08:55] Speaker D: Like, it's shiny, it's new. I'm going to do all this, and.
[00:08:57] Speaker C: You get in there and you're not using it.
[00:08:59] Speaker D: And I just find, like, breaking it.
[00:09:01] Speaker C: Down super simply and super explicitly.
[00:09:03] Speaker D: If you do this, your conversion rates will go up.
[00:09:06] Speaker C: And that, to me, seems to work, like, across any number of features that you might be trying to get people to use.
[00:09:11] Speaker D: It's like you're really in this era.
[00:09:12] Speaker C: Where our attention's divided over everything.
[00:09:14] Speaker D: Break it down, make it simple, and.
[00:09:16] Speaker C: Make it so that they can't say.
[00:09:17] Speaker D: No to doing it.
[00:09:18] Speaker A: This is slowly turning into a just selfish discussion of me learning from you got all these questions. So we're currently testing out webinar live events for the first time. Again, going back to this is something I've never done, done in b, two c companies, but with b, two b, it appears that businesses and people in businesses love doing these things. Can you talk us through how does events fit into your overall growth strategy? And then more importantly, can you get tactical? Like, okay, we're having this event.
[00:09:44] Speaker D: Great. But then what?
Yeah, absolutely. So for me, I think that historically.
[00:09:51] Speaker C: Unbounce has done these incredible conferences. Like CTA Conf was actually why I started using unbounce, because, like, anyone who's a digital marketer in Vancouver was going.
[00:09:59] Speaker D: To these events and learning how to.
[00:10:02] Speaker C: Write copy, how to optimize, et cetera, et cetera. And so we've, you know, since the pandemic, CTA hasn't been a thing. We've been tiptoeing back into it. And speaking of, like, what's old is new again, like a b testing long.
[00:10:12] Speaker D: Time, you know, thing.
[00:10:13] Speaker C: Webinars is kind of the same tool.
[00:10:15] Speaker D: I think people want that connection, and.
[00:10:17] Speaker C: We don't have as many excuses, maybe, as we previously did, to get together in person.
[00:10:21] Speaker D: And so for me, I've noticed with webinars, it's like you actually see people.
[00:10:25] Speaker C: Answering each other's questions in the chat and engaging with each other.
[00:10:28] Speaker D: And it's giving them that sort of.
[00:10:29] Speaker C: Water cooler venue to just get together.
[00:10:31] Speaker D: And share their own opinions, even though.
[00:10:33] Speaker C: You know, you've got like a panel of experts on. So for me, it's like the other.
[00:10:36] Speaker D: Great thing about, say, webinars, right, is.
[00:10:39] Speaker C: It serves new customers. You're considering your solution.
[00:10:41] Speaker D: It serves existing customers who maybe aren't using it as well as they could be. So it's kind of a melting pot of everyone you can build this enthusiasm with, like with your brand evangelists or.
[00:10:52] Speaker C: People who are trying to do better. You've got these new customers who are.
[00:10:55] Speaker D: Seeing how actual people use it, and then afterwards, it's just a matter of.
[00:11:01] Speaker C: Segmenting them out and I think treating.
[00:11:02] Speaker D: Everyone giving respect to where they're at.
[00:11:04] Speaker C: In their customer journey.
[00:11:05] Speaker D: So it's easy to think of it.
[00:11:07] Speaker C: As an acquisition strategy. And that's, for the longest time, how I thought of webinars.
[00:11:11] Speaker D: But what cracked it for me, it's.
[00:11:13] Speaker C: Actually an engagement strategy with your existing.
[00:11:15] Speaker D: Customers, with the added bonus of doing some of the work and acquisitions.
For me, if you think about it.
[00:11:21] Speaker C: As a way to reengage with your.
[00:11:22] Speaker D: Existing customers, how did you find it?
[00:11:24] Speaker C: How can we help you get set up?
[00:11:26] Speaker D: Like book a time with us to.
[00:11:27] Speaker C: Learn more about how you can effectively a b test.
[00:11:30] Speaker D: Like, it drives engagement. I would dare say it drives retention.
[00:11:33] Speaker C: Because you're providing value to existing customers.
[00:11:36] Speaker D: And you're making them feel safe.
[00:11:37] Speaker B: Well, you're not just teaching them about your product either. You're teaching them a technique they need to succeed in their life and your career back to your selling a better, ideal version of yourself, right? Yeah, it reminds me of.
I can't remember the name of the book right now, but surely you both are marketers by trade. David Ogilvy on advertising said advertisers. You're not advertising to a standing army, you're advertising to a moving parade. So it may be old news to you. You might not like that tagline anymore. You might think a b testing is a played out concept.
[00:12:11] Speaker D: But guess what?
[00:12:12] Speaker B: There are millions of people that graduated from college this year that have never actually done that hands on in a real world career scenario, and they need to know how to do it. And you could be the company that basically educates them on how to do that.
[00:12:25] Speaker D: Yeah, exactly.
[00:12:25] Speaker C: It's not new to us.
[00:12:26] Speaker D: Oh, man.
[00:12:27] Speaker C: Like, as marketers, we fall into this.
[00:12:28] Speaker D: All the time just because it's not new to us.
[00:12:30] Speaker C: Doesn't mean it's not new to other.
[00:12:31] Speaker D: People or not relevant to other people. We may be sick of a b testing, but as you said, brand new.
[00:12:36] Speaker C: To a whole new cohort of marketers coming up.
[00:12:38] Speaker D: So let's make sure we're sharing that info. Yeah.
[00:12:40] Speaker B: Nothing drives me more crazy than seeing a CMO who just walks in the door and is like, I've got to put my mark on this thing. I've got to redo the website. I got to come up with a new tagline, let's rebrand.
[00:12:52] Speaker D: And then we're going to go. It's like, no, let's go with what.
[00:12:56] Speaker B: We'Ve got, and then adjust as we go. There are some situations where you need to rebrand.
[00:13:01] Speaker D: I'm sure that's like, there's plenty of.
[00:13:02] Speaker B: Those, but more often than not, you're wasting time. Valuable, valuable time.
[00:13:07] Speaker A: Alex, switching gears a little bit, do you have a north star on the growth team? Is there one metric you all are chasing? I guess maybe another way is how do you all define success? How do you track, how does that work?
[00:13:18] Speaker D: That's an interesting one.
[00:13:19] Speaker C: So.
[00:13:19] Speaker D: Oh, man, I don't know if we.
[00:13:21] Speaker C: Have time to go through all that, but.
[00:13:28] Speaker D: As far as a north star goes, okay, I'm going to start with.
[00:13:31] Speaker C: My philosophy around what the marketing team, what the growth team is here to do. And really what we're here to do is to.
[00:13:35] Speaker D: We're here to, like, put step on.
[00:13:37] Speaker C: The gas when the business needs it.
[00:13:38] Speaker D: And to, like, and to grow profitably.
[00:13:41] Speaker C: When the business needs it. There's no, like, you know, 0% interest rate. Environment is over.
[00:13:46] Speaker D: Growth at all costs is dead, um.
[00:13:48] Speaker C: Until the next, you know, until sometime in the future, if we ever get that level of cash floating around in the market back.
[00:13:54] Speaker D: So to me, it's hard to pick.
[00:13:56] Speaker C: One metric that makes sense.
[00:13:57] Speaker D: At one point. Something that I found works really well is, uh, you know what we call.
[00:14:01] Speaker C: The LTV to CAC ratio. And that's a really high level one.
[00:14:05] Speaker D: You can't run your team with it.
[00:14:06] Speaker C: But it gives you, it's like, kind of the perfect tool to kick off those discussions.
[00:14:11] Speaker D: And I like it because it gives.
[00:14:12] Speaker C: You a way to drill down into.
[00:14:13] Speaker D: What your team is doing, but also.
[00:14:15] Speaker C: Encapsulate what they've done to shift the.
[00:14:17] Speaker D: Business and translate it to other teams, like finance, operations, sales, and kind of.
[00:14:22] Speaker C: Kick the discussion off there, too.
[00:14:23] Speaker A: Can you explain that concept to the non marketers?
[00:14:26] Speaker D: Listening? Yeah.
Yeah. Well, I mean, it's such a mouthful.
[00:14:30] Speaker C: So it's basically just a ratio of your customer lifetime value, your LTV, to your customer acquisition cost, your CAC. And then on the LTV side, it breaks down further.
[00:14:39] Speaker D: You've got, you can take your average revenue per user per month and multiply.
[00:14:44] Speaker C: That by the number of months a.
[00:14:46] Speaker D: Customer stays with you on average to.
[00:14:49] Speaker C: Give you your lifetime value.
[00:14:50] Speaker D: And then on the CAC side, number of customers you're getting, amount of money.
[00:14:54] Speaker C: You'Re spending divided by the number of.
[00:14:55] Speaker D: Customers that you're getting to give you an average cost per customer that you acquire. And why I like this metric is.
[00:15:02] Speaker C: Across the SaaS industry, it's pretty consistent.
[00:15:04] Speaker D: If you can get every $3 of LTV to $1 of CAC that you're spending, you can scale indefinitely.
[00:15:10] Speaker C: Just keep that metric at three to one and you're good to go. You can go to the moon, it doesn't matter. You can ask for more money. Your CFO should not be saying no to you. Your CEO should not be saying no to you.
[00:15:19] Speaker D: It's just like pour fuel on the fire, let's go. But the other reason I like it.
[00:15:23] Speaker C: Is it lets you dig in area by area of your business. And as a marketer, you're responsible for.
[00:15:29] Speaker D: Your brand perception out there.
[00:15:30] Speaker C: You're responsible for socializing and adopting new features. And are you hitting the right plan mix?
Are you engaging and activating your customers the way that they need to be?
[00:15:39] Speaker D: Are you upselling them? And it combines all of these different competing initiatives, get bogged down in into.
[00:15:46] Speaker C: One very nice, tidy little metric that allows you to kick off the discussion.
[00:15:49] Speaker D: Dig down step by step and diagnose. So it's kind of my pet Patrick, as it were. Nice. I like that. So we argue a lot about, I.
[00:15:57] Speaker A: Do this a lot. I'm like, oh yeah, we'll just figure out our CAC, no big deal. And then we start looking at spreadsheets.
[00:16:02] Speaker D: And costs and you're like, wait a.
[00:16:03] Speaker A: Second, is sales part of this? You know, we have all these expenses.
Do you think there's a hard and fast rule for what should be included in CAC or is it business dependent? What do you think about that?
[00:16:14] Speaker C: You kind of have to know your business. I would say, generally speaking, if youve got a sales function, some of that needs to be included in there.
[00:16:20] Speaker D: I would say if it has a direct impact on your conversion from viewer.
[00:16:26] Speaker C: Trialer to customer, it should likely be.
[00:16:28] Speaker D: Included in your CAC calculation. Im sure a lot of people would.
[00:16:32] Speaker C: Fight me on that and they would.
[00:16:33] Speaker D: Be right to do.
[00:16:33] Speaker B: So theres a very specific definition too, of what LTV deCaG means from an investor standpoint. Theyre going to look at it and theyre going to look at your p and L. They're going to say, here's your revenue and they're going to adjust it for gross margin because that's what you do. So have you had to sort of have those conversations with your teams? But you know, what's really interesting too, about you is that I actually don't hear many marketers that don't come from the b two c world using this language. They don't use the language of business, which is finance, to describe their efforts and work. So is that something you think comes from, naturally from the b two c side because you, you're more sort of ingrained with the product side of things as well or.
[00:17:15] Speaker D: That's a good point. I mean, actually, I never even thought.
[00:17:17] Speaker C: About that until you said it. I would say, yeah, probably so.
[00:17:20] Speaker D: I've always like, I've always had like.
[00:17:22] Speaker C: E commerce teams under my purview. So there's this natural like attunement to like gross margin and like average transaction.
[00:17:28] Speaker D: Value and all those like very b two c e commerce focused metrics to.
[00:17:32] Speaker C: Be hyper aware of.
[00:17:33] Speaker D: And also like in growth marketing, a.
[00:17:35] Speaker C: Lot of what you do, like you're paying for, you're paying for software, for.
[00:17:38] Speaker D: For media spend, et cetera, and you.
[00:17:40] Speaker C: Have to justify it. So you have to get fluent really fast.
[00:17:42] Speaker D: I think in financial metrics, it's like a shortcut, essentially like superhighway right into.
[00:17:47] Speaker C: The brain of your head of finance or CFO.
[00:17:49] Speaker D: Right. And like this is what I need. This is what you'll get. Please give me the money.
[00:17:53] Speaker B: Right. This is, this is like a personal, I feel like I'm on a personal mission on this one because I will tell you, I spent a lot of time with b two B companies. It's funny. Baird and I, Baird's more, he's comes from the b two C angle. I come more from the b two B angle. We're meeting where we are here at Turkey, but across a lot of different areas of the business, including marketing, customer success, product development and b two B companies don't really do a great job of educating their teams on this kind of thing. Everybody feels very far away from the actual business and I think it's a detriment, especially when to your earlier point, money is no longer free. And now it's actually, we got to pay attention to all this stuff. We have to know, the impact. I see marketers all the time struggling with justifying what they are doing to the CFO, which is a tough place to be, but it's because they're speaking a totally different language. So how's that literacy that you have helped you not only in your b two C days, but even today at unbounce? Do you have conversations with your finance team regularly?
[00:18:55] Speaker C: So we're lucky, I'd say, that we've got a finance team that is very socially adapted and really want to share what they're working on and how they look at the business. We've got like finance office hours. They talk very eloquently about it.
[00:19:06] Speaker D: And like, I strongly encourage my whole team to participate and ask questions, but like, to be fair to, like, our entire cohort of like, digital marketers on.
[00:19:18] Speaker C: The younger side, anyone who graduated after like 2010, 2009 from university, which is like a lot of us, right?
[00:19:25] Speaker D: Yeah. It was an era of free money. We don't know what it was like.
[00:19:29] Speaker C: To be, to be justifying our efforts.
[00:19:31] Speaker D: In the nineties or like, you know.
[00:19:33] Speaker C: God forbid, the eighties when interest rates were like 20%.
[00:19:36] Speaker D: So we are used to growth at.
[00:19:38] Speaker C: All costs and money was just never a question that was asked.
[00:19:40] Speaker D: It was given and you spent it, I think. And now that things are tightening up.
[00:19:46] Speaker C: Especially in software, I think we do have to pivot.
[00:19:48] Speaker D: It's going to become more like b.
[00:19:49] Speaker C: Two c selling, where like margins matter, like transaction size matters.
[00:19:53] Speaker D: And I'd say that I go out.
[00:19:55] Speaker C: Of my way to teach my team to be articulate and all that, even.
[00:19:57] Speaker D: If it doesn't relate directly back to their role.
[00:20:00] Speaker A: Going back to your point about the webinars and how it has kind of turned generally a sales tool, but is actually working for renewals and retention. Just curious, as the vp of growth, are you being pulled into marketing towards existing customers for expansion and renewal? Is that part of what, or is that just kind of a byproduct of.
[00:20:20] Speaker D: What you all do?
[00:20:22] Speaker C: It's a bit of both.
[00:20:23] Speaker D: I mean, the way I look at.
[00:20:25] Speaker C: It, I mean, the other thing I think that is really different in b two B versus in b two C, is that the configuration of the marketing teams, which teams reporting to whom and so on and so forth, is a lot more fluid. There's so many more roles, there's someone to do everything. But that means that the team is.
[00:20:38] Speaker D: Always in a bit of a state of flux. So the way that I maybe work my way around that is I try to look at the whole fun lens.
[00:20:48] Speaker C: I could drive a ton of customers.
[00:20:50] Speaker D: Who try our product, but if not.
[00:20:52] Speaker C: Very many of them are converting to paying customers.
[00:20:55] Speaker D: Or if they convert and then they all churn, I've just shot myself in the foot.
[00:20:58] Speaker C: I just promised I was going to spend all this money, get all this result. My LTV to CAC ratio is going to stay in this harmonious three to.
[00:21:05] Speaker D: One range, and if they all turn.
[00:21:08] Speaker C: Off, it's going to drop and I'm going to get questions. So the way I look at it.
[00:21:11] Speaker D: Is until the customer's gone all the.
[00:21:13] Speaker C: Way down the funnel and they're part.
[00:21:14] Speaker D: Of like, our core customer base, my.
[00:21:16] Speaker C: Job is not really done.
[00:21:17] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes, that makes a lot of sense. We're 21 minutes in and we haven't said the word AI, so I think it's like time to introduce it. But, and I bring this up because, so I was doing sales for the last year and a half and now transitioning to marketing here at Chernkey, which is b two B software. And so I've actually been out of marketing for a year and just this week jumping back into it, and it is different. Like, you know, I don't want to throw a bunch of buzzwords out, but it does feel like things are changing rapidly. What advice would you give to somebody that's getting started in marketing growth today that, you know, if they're starting fresh.
[00:21:55] Speaker D: What have you learned? And that's a great question.
[00:21:58] Speaker C: The field changes so much, it's hard to pin down.
[00:22:01] Speaker D: Like even a few years ago, the tools, the tips I'd recommend are all different, although I'd say overall the advice.
[00:22:09] Speaker C: Is still the same. If you were just getting into growth.
[00:22:11] Speaker D: Marketing, you need to be comfortable with a wide variety of tools and techniques. So seek out people who have experience.
[00:22:18] Speaker C: In paid search, or seek out people who are search engine optimization specialists.
[00:22:22] Speaker D: It's like, look channel by channel and.
[00:22:24] Speaker C: See who you can learn from and try and synthesize that into kind of.
[00:22:27] Speaker D: A unified theory of like, how would you grow a business? There's no one magic bullet. So it's more like building your arsenal.
[00:22:33] Speaker C: As wide as possible and understanding the.
[00:22:35] Speaker D: Correct tools to deploy. And I realize that didn't touch on.
[00:22:38] Speaker C: AI, but.
[00:22:41] Speaker D: I would say that AI intersects differently with different disciplines in marketing. I would say, again, like, for me, I see it more as a tool.
[00:22:51] Speaker C: Right now, not as something that you.
[00:22:53] Speaker D: Should be using to help you do the hard work, which is, who are you targeting? What are you saying to them?
[00:22:59] Speaker C: What is your positioning versus your competitors.
[00:23:01] Speaker D: Versus what else is out there. And how do you go about that?
[00:23:04] Speaker C: There's often no one right answer to that. Only you know that that's got to be your brand.
[00:23:08] Speaker D: But then within that, like writing the emails and the content, like coming up.
[00:23:12] Speaker C: With a framework on how you might.
[00:23:13] Speaker D: Structure a campaign, these are all things.
[00:23:15] Speaker C: That you can use AI to help.
[00:23:16] Speaker D: You write a first draft on. And then you can put into place your expertise as a copywriter, as a campaign manager, as a general digital marketer to put those finishing touches on it.
[00:23:28] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's also should be hopeful to digital marketers out there that I think the AI market tells us that everything's changing, everybody's going to lose their jobs and all these things are happening. In reality, the way you put it was perfectly, this is a tool that you put into your tool belt. This is not replacing the tool belt itself. So, okay, so I'm selfishly jumping around.
[00:23:51] Speaker D: A lot here, but we are currently.
[00:23:54] Speaker A: In our first OKR planning session. So all about okrs and frameworks, how does that work at unbounce? And what's your role in, your team's role in kind of designing those?
[00:24:05] Speaker D: Yeah, so I would say we're a.
[00:24:08] Speaker C: Big fan of the scaling up methodology, which I think is based on the.
[00:24:12] Speaker D: Rockefeller habits, which I, again, probably don't want to get into all the detail.
[00:24:16] Speaker C: There, but there's some really good books.
[00:24:17] Speaker D: Out there on that. Something I like about it is it.
[00:24:21] Speaker C: Gives you a universal set of priorities across the company. We've got these big quarterly priorities that.
[00:24:27] Speaker D: We decide we're going to tackle.
[00:24:29] Speaker C: Frankly, this is one of the best opportunities we have to come together as team leaders. But then it also empowers us to.
[00:24:36] Speaker D: Go and talk to people on other.
[00:24:37] Speaker C: Teams that we might not always talk.
[00:24:38] Speaker D: To or like, bring together groups of.
[00:24:40] Speaker C: People that are in pursuit of a.
[00:24:41] Speaker D: Common goal and find ways to work together.
[00:24:44] Speaker C: Say our goal was to increase the volume of people trialing our product.
[00:24:48] Speaker D: There would then be, we would then come up with as a group again.
[00:24:51] Speaker C: Across marketing, across sales and cs, across operations.
[00:24:55] Speaker D: What are the actions that we can put in place that will accomplish this most efficiently between who's involved and what.
[00:25:02] Speaker C: Other dependencies are there among different teams and, like, which team owns it?
[00:25:05] Speaker D: So I find that, like, when you're.
[00:25:07] Speaker C: Coming up with your okrs, it's like.
[00:25:09] Speaker D: There'S got to be one person that.
[00:25:11] Speaker C: Owns it, but that doesn't mean that they do it themselves.
[00:25:13] Speaker D: It's got to be the whole organizations bought into it.
[00:25:16] Speaker B: I think the best okrs are, they're naturally cross functional if you have an OKR that is, or whatever it is. What was the name of the methodology you said again?
[00:25:25] Speaker D: Oh, scaling up.
[00:25:27] Speaker B: Scaling up.
[00:25:27] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:25:28] Speaker B: That's actually one I've not heard of. But if you're writing down a goal and it's just a departmental level thing.
[00:25:33] Speaker D: That it might not even be that impactful right at the end of the.
[00:25:37] Speaker B: Day to the business overall, because there's nothing that happens in these b, two b businesses that isn't interconnected with other parts. The only reason we have departments is because we have to organize people some way.
[00:25:48] Speaker D: Right.
[00:25:48] Speaker B: But it's really sort of the antithesis of what we're trying to achieve, which is to make it all blend together and work for the customer and for the business itself. So departments are necessary evil in my mind.
[00:26:00] Speaker D: That's a good point. If you ever got, like, a key.
[00:26:02] Speaker C: Result that is just isolated to one department, it almost feels superfluous. It's like this is something that we're just doing because this is the right.
[00:26:09] Speaker D: Thing to do for the marketing team.
[00:26:10] Speaker C: We don't even need to bring, like.
[00:26:12] Speaker D: Quarterly planning into it. We should do it, do it. That's a good point. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:26:17] Speaker B: Going back to something else you said a couple of minutes ago, too, and I think it gets back to this as well. Everybody wants to scale things. Everybody wants their work to be easy and to be able to get it done faster. But there's this balance between effectiveness and efficiency. And when you were talking about. So I'm sort of sorry, I hope I'm not rewinding us too far, but taking us back to this AI conversation a little bit, it triggered for me this idea that you should be doing things with your own hands still to figure out what works, because AI actually isn't going to tell you that. It's sort of regurgitating what has already happened in the world.
[00:26:53] Speaker D: Right.
[00:26:53] Speaker B: Which may give you some good ideas to start with, and you should certainly use that as an accelerant.
[00:26:57] Speaker D: But how do you think about, and.
[00:26:59] Speaker B: How does your team think about finding something that's effective and then using your methodology, scaling it up from there? Do you all have those conversations at unbounce?
[00:27:08] Speaker D: Totally. Like, if anything, I feel like this.
[00:27:11] Speaker C: Is what we're trying to get out there into the universe. AI is a tool that you need to harness. AI should not be in the driver's.
[00:27:16] Speaker D: Seat, and you can't be depending on.
[00:27:18] Speaker C: It to do the job that you were hired to do.
[00:27:20] Speaker D: Like, it's not coming to replace anyone, right? It is there. AI can get you part of the way there.
[00:27:24] Speaker C: Like it gets rid of blank page syndrome. It can give you a framework to work off of. You can organize your thoughts.
[00:27:30] Speaker D: It can't do the thinking for you, so it helps you be efficient. But to be effective, you actually really.
[00:27:34] Speaker C: Have to learn your craft. You have to make sure you're paying.
[00:27:36] Speaker D: Attention to what's going out there on.
[00:27:38] Speaker C: Out there in the marketing world. And are you going to define yourself within the group in opposition to like, you have to have an original point.
[00:27:45] Speaker D: Of view on that, otherwise you're going to be pumping out that generic b.
[00:27:49] Speaker C: Two b marketing content that we all.
[00:27:51] Speaker D: Know and hate so much from LinkedIn ads.
[00:27:55] Speaker B: Not calling anybody out, but link to that. It's like the field of dreams, right? Build it and they'll come.
[00:28:01] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:28:02] Speaker A: Again, going back to me getting back into marketing, and I just sometimes am overwhelmed with how noisy all these channels are. And LinkedIn is a good example. I open up LinkedIn, I don't even know what to do. I've got so many messages and notifications, like, what's the trick for cutting through the noise these days, if there is one? Or how do you keep that from slowing you down?
[00:28:22] Speaker D: It shifts around so much. I would say, like, I mean, the.
[00:28:25] Speaker C: Cop out answer is you have to be doing something that everyone else is not doing. And of course what that translates into is you do something, you have a breakthrough, everyone else follows you or we.
[00:28:34] Speaker D: Follow someone else who's done it, and.
[00:28:35] Speaker C: Then the goal post shift and the cycle repeats itself. So right now I feel like, I don't know, I went from like barely being aware of substack to being subscribed to like eight different substacks by like revenue, like revenue architects, like conversion rate optimization experts, I would say I've got.
[00:28:50] Speaker D: A whole bookmark folder of like ebooks.
[00:28:53] Speaker C: And like various like, artifacts I've downloaded.
[00:28:56] Speaker D: I think generally speaking, though, ebooks kind.
[00:28:58] Speaker C: Of had their moment. And I would say now things are shifting more towards, it's like less about the writing and the thought leadership in.
[00:29:03] Speaker D: It as much as it is. Here are some practical things you can deploy right away, like frameworks, examples, like.
[00:29:09] Speaker C: Case studies are even too complicated.
[00:29:11] Speaker D: I would say it's like things that.
[00:29:12] Speaker C: You as a leader can deploy right away.
[00:29:14] Speaker D: This week with your team, I feel.
[00:29:16] Speaker C: Like that cuts through the noise.
[00:29:17] Speaker D: It's immediate, it's useful, and like, frankly.
[00:29:20] Speaker C: Like, it's harder than ever being a digital marketer this year.
[00:29:22] Speaker D: So that's what you're looking for. I'm looking for quick wins. I'm looking for things to polish off who I am and just elevate my market. So anyone who's doing that is going.
[00:29:31] Speaker C: To break through the clutter, I would say.
[00:29:32] Speaker A: Can you give some examples of that?
[00:29:35] Speaker D: Yeah, for sure.
[00:29:36] Speaker C: So for example, we at some point.
[00:29:39] Speaker D: Ran some point last year we tried.
[00:29:43] Speaker C: Running an ebook around, I don't even.
[00:29:45] Speaker D: Remember what the theme was, but it.
[00:29:46] Speaker C: Didn'T perform the way that we expected it to. And we're like wringing our hands. We're like, no, this is great. It looks beautiful, the content's fantastic.
[00:29:52] Speaker D: It's like it's got a definitive point of view. It's so good.
[00:29:55] Speaker C: What's wrong? I don't understand. This worked last year, right?
[00:29:58] Speaker D: And then revisiting it, we're like looking out there, it's like everywhere is inundated with these ebooks.
[00:30:04] Speaker C: There's like state of this, state of that.
Five trends to watch for. And it's a lot of very high.
[00:30:10] Speaker D: Level, directional kind of strategic advice that.
[00:30:13] Speaker C: Doesn'T translate into anything, especially in Q.
[00:30:15] Speaker D: One, Q two when rubber hits the road. So we revamped our approach and now we're running, for example, we're coming out with, we're actually going to be releasing.
[00:30:24] Speaker C: A framework on how you would build.
[00:30:26] Speaker D: An A B testing schedule, for example, and other things like that. Like you can download it in PDF form or an excel form and you.
[00:30:34] Speaker C: Can just upload it and start using.
[00:30:35] Speaker D: It as a team. So again, it's easy because we're marketers, marketing to marketers, but it's about sharing.
[00:30:41] Speaker C: Tips of the trade.
[00:30:42] Speaker D: Like whoever you're marketing to, what do.
[00:30:44] Speaker C: They use in their day to day? Can you get in their inbox, can you get in their Google Drive?
[00:30:48] Speaker D: Even better.
[00:30:49] Speaker C: And can you like intercept into their.
[00:30:51] Speaker D: Like into the processes their day to day? And if you can do that, you're.
[00:30:56] Speaker C: Going to stick in their mind as.
[00:30:57] Speaker D: Well, even if what you've shared with.
[00:30:58] Speaker C: Them is not directly related.
[00:30:59] Speaker D: Because let's be honest, like our AB testing calendar is not directly related to.
[00:31:05] Speaker C: Landing pages and a b testing, although.
[00:31:07] Speaker D: It kind of is. When you're in need of a solution.
[00:31:09] Speaker C: You'Re going to think unbounds.
[00:31:10] Speaker D: And I think that that pertains pretty much across the b two B system today.
[00:31:14] Speaker A: So this example of like the ebook versus the like really tactical snapshot that you're sending, is the content changing or is it just the delivery? Or is it just the organization of the content? Like, are you having to say things differently or are you just the number.
[00:31:27] Speaker D: Of words I would say generally, like.
[00:31:29] Speaker C: Less words, more diagrams are more. Like, when I say artifact, I mean like something that you can upload or.
[00:31:34] Speaker D: Copy into your drive and just.
[00:31:36] Speaker C: And just use. Whether it's a template you fill out.
[00:31:39] Speaker D: Or a form that you fill out or an Excel chart that you use.
[00:31:43] Speaker C: To track results week over week, it's about giving something that you can just.
[00:31:46] Speaker D: Upload, like slap your own metrics into and make it your own.
[00:31:50] Speaker B: I have an example of this. I'm right in the middle of creating comp plans for bdrs, right? And I've got. I know what I want to comp them on. I know what the strategy is.
[00:31:58] Speaker C: But, you know what I would really.
[00:31:59] Speaker B: Like right now is a template for the actual.
[00:32:02] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:32:02] Speaker B: See itself. And I'm like, man, I'm going to go Google that later and I'm going to find something, I hope, and whoever has that for me will have my attention.
[00:32:12] Speaker D: Right.
[00:32:13] Speaker C: Frankly, I wouldn't even be surprised if you get an ad showing up at the top that links you straight to a lead gen piece where you're downloading the templates.
[00:32:19] Speaker B: So, like, that's where we're at, right?
[00:32:21] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:32:22] Speaker B: We decide whether I want to give away my firstborn son to get that template, you know? But you know, the other thing there too, like, you have all these channels, you know, b, two c, you've got Instagram, Facebook, and you got LinkedIn.
[00:32:35] Speaker D: I think a lot of the mistakes.
[00:32:36] Speaker B: That people make, I've spent a lot of time on LinkedIn. I'm sort of a b, two b guy through and through. And that's sort of what I've. That's the only place where I've had any success in social media, to be purely honest with you. But what I realized early on in playing with LinkedIn was that if you just put the value that you're trying to provide directly into the post, instead of trying to get the customer or the person to go off platform to a link or some other place and grab some information from them, that stuff does not convert. The more value you give them right.
[00:33:07] Speaker D: In the feed, the better off.
[00:33:09] Speaker B: And to your point, if you can make it an actionable tool, it's concrete, it's not ephemeral, some high minded idea. It's actually something I did yesterday and failed or succeeded at, that people can learn from. They're much more likely to then engage.
[00:33:22] Speaker D: With me later when I ask for engagement in some specific way.
[00:33:28] Speaker C: 100%.
[00:33:29] Speaker D: 100%.
[00:33:30] Speaker C: Great.
[00:33:30] Speaker A: Now I'm going to spend my whole weekend coming up with these ideas for.
[00:33:32] Speaker D: These because we have them.
[00:33:34] Speaker A: What's funny is the stuff you're talking about. I'm just thinking back to, we had a great support call where somebody put together a PDF about some very specific product use cases, and, like, wait, that's marketing material. If I just package it a little bit differently. And that's exactly what you're talking about. It's less where my mind was generally thinking about, oh, we got to talk about this specific feature, or, like, all these results that it drives, rather than like, hey, here's a helpful piece of content.
[00:34:00] Speaker D: Go use it. Yeah. To go off on a bit of.
[00:34:03] Speaker C: A tangent, I feel like TikTok and, like, the rise of short form video has actually made us, like, a lot more open to this stuff because, like, you know, you think of a clip, like. Or, like an Instagram reel, it's like.
[00:34:13] Speaker D: It'S way less than a minute long. There's no context.
[00:34:15] Speaker C: It's just like someone speaking at you, like, right in the frame, right. And they're spewing their hot take or whatever it is, or they're sharing info, or they're stitching into something that they.
[00:34:25] Speaker D: Saw earlier that day.
[00:34:26] Speaker C: And I feel like, a lot more.
[00:34:28] Speaker D: Again, like, it's not b two B.
[00:34:29] Speaker C: Or b two c. Marketing. It's marketing.
[00:34:31] Speaker D: Like, a lot of the stuff that.
[00:34:32] Speaker C: Seems to work to me personally or.
[00:34:34] Speaker D: That I find myself clicking through on lacks that context. It's like, how do you design?
[00:34:39] Speaker C: Like, if we're talking about unbounce, it.
[00:34:40] Speaker D: Would be like, how do you get.
[00:34:41] Speaker C: A landing page set up and published in 10 seconds? And it's like someone, like, zooming around the screen doing that.
[00:34:46] Speaker D: Or it's like, how do you set.
[00:34:47] Speaker C: Up a b testing? I go in here, I click this, I get my variant.
[00:34:49] Speaker D: I go like, it's that stuff. It's not.
[00:34:52] Speaker C: You don't have to set all the context.
[00:34:53] Speaker D: You don't have to have this high minded overview.
[00:34:56] Speaker C: It's less formal. It's in your face.
[00:34:57] Speaker D: It's practical.
[00:34:59] Speaker C: I just think that we've been primed.
[00:35:00] Speaker D: As a group of consumers to consume content that way.
[00:35:05] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:35:06] Speaker B: If you don't provide value in the first 5 seconds, maybe the first 2 seconds, like, you're gone, right?
[00:35:11] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:35:12] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:35:12] Speaker D: Like, why would I keep watching?
[00:35:15] Speaker B: All right, I got quiz for you guys. Who is the $3 billion company that's got more of this type of content than anybody else on the planet?
[00:35:24] Speaker D: They've been doing it for years.
[00:35:26] Speaker B: You guys are market.
[00:35:28] Speaker A: I'm three days into marketing.
[00:35:29] Speaker B: Give me, you know, no HubSpot, though. I mean, HubSpot has this for a long time. I listen to the marketing against the Grain podcast all the time. I am not a marketer by trade. I'm a wannabe marketer, to be very clear.
[00:35:41] Speaker D: But I love it because it's all about, I mean, they just dump knowledge.
[00:35:45] Speaker B: But they talk about this all the time. The things that they did in their early days. To give a tool, give a template, like create something that somebody can come and use.
[00:35:56] Speaker D: I mean, I'm sure you probably wouldn't.
[00:35:58] Speaker B: Attribute all of their success to their marketing strategy, but certainly you combine a great marketing strategy with a great product, with a great sales team, good culture, and you're going to win.
[00:36:07] Speaker D: Right?
[00:36:08] Speaker B: So it's pretty cool to watch how they've leveraged that.
[00:36:13] Speaker A: Just curious, what's your hot take on where marketing is going in the future?
[00:36:18] Speaker D: Man, there's a few things.
[00:36:21] Speaker C: I mean, I think it's going to.
[00:36:22] Speaker D: Get simultaneously more boring but more fascinating this year. Like, third party cookies are dead in the water, budgets are up, everyone's dumping.
[00:36:31] Speaker C: Everything they've got into paid search and trying to do that.
[00:36:34] Speaker D: Well, as I said, like, I think.
[00:36:35] Speaker C: It'S going to be a matter of what's old and new again. Like, I hear people talking about incrementality testing. That hasn't been a thing since I've been out of school.
[00:36:42] Speaker D: You know, what is, what is that? I don't even know what that is.
[00:36:45] Speaker C: That's like, you take, you've got your whole marketing mix, and you turn up.
[00:36:48] Speaker D: Or down one channel maybe, like, in.
[00:36:51] Speaker C: A specific area, and you see what.
[00:36:52] Speaker D: The overall impact is on your marketing fund.
[00:36:55] Speaker C: And this is where people are going to some degree.
[00:36:58] Speaker D: And I think, again, like a b.
[00:36:59] Speaker C: Testing, I've never seen so much interest in this. It's such a basic thing. It's one of those things.
[00:37:03] Speaker D: It's like brushing your teeth.
[00:37:04] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We all do it, but we should all do it more. And suddenly it's this big hot topic again.
[00:37:09] Speaker D: Like, it would be like a TikTok.
[00:37:11] Speaker C: Influencer rediscovering, like, revolutionary way to clean your teeth.
[00:37:15] Speaker D: It's like, it's that level of, like.
[00:37:17] Speaker C: There'S all these old, once stodgy marketing tactics that we thought we heard the end of in 2019 are all back with a vengeance.
[00:37:24] Speaker A: That's interesting.
[00:37:25] Speaker D: That's my hot take.
[00:37:26] Speaker A: Love it.
[00:37:27] Speaker D: That was great.
[00:37:28] Speaker B: Hey, Alex, if people want to find you, where can they connect with you.
[00:37:32] Speaker C: You should connect with me on LinkedIn. I am more than.
Follow me on LinkedIn.
[00:37:40] Speaker D: Smash the subscribe button.
[00:37:42] Speaker B: Very cool.
[00:37:43] Speaker D: Awesome.
[00:37:44] Speaker B: Well, we appreciate you doing this, man. It's a lot of fun.
[00:37:46] Speaker C: And you guys are also just like wellsprings of knowledge. It's been super fun talking, and I feel like you really put me through my paces, too, which is great.
[00:37:53] Speaker B: We'll have to do it again sometime. For sure. Keep tabs on you.
[00:37:55] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. Yeah.
